Curse

Shasgaliel · Jun 12, 2009, 11:42 AM // 11:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by SurrealFi

I think it's quite hilarious (hiscarious even) that most of the poeple who DO complain about Discord/RoJ/SF/CoP/whatever are the ones who've been abusing it the most. But now, obviously when they're done with the VQ:ing of all three contintents, gotten the e-blade from the uw chest after running it like 300 times as a sin, keg-farmed their wisdom titles up to max and so on, they think something like:

"lol wtfbbq, everyone is a gwamm, nerf everything so it gets harder to get and we'll still be the cool kids! I'm done, I dont care if everyone else has to do it the hard way when I got it while sleepwalking and throwing kisses at Livia at the same time. Anet c'moooooon please nerf it all!"

OFT.

Hmm interesting update BTW.....

Xenomortis · Jun 12, 2009, 11:45 AM // 11:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by Improvavel

PvE balance while consumables, (nerf RoJ pop essence of celerity and voila Feast of Corruption everyone. Of course it wont happen because Cry of Pain is still there), monster and PvE only skills and, environmental effects (including the HM mob buff) exist is a utopia.

Most people don't want balance btw - they want a harder game and especially make titles harder for those that don't have them yet.

Balanced games are quite easy vs a stupid AI.

PvE skills and consumables allowed ANet to get away with terrible game design.

I can picture this:

Developer 1: "I know, let's make this game harder by creating very large mobs with irritating skill sets and some powerful Monster Skills and absurd stats! People like a challenge!"

Developer 2: "Great!"

...

Developer 1: "Oh dear, mabye turns out they're a bit too powerful for average players."

Developer 2: "I know, we'll give the players these powerful skills they can only use in PvE. We'll make them more powerful than a lot of unused elites too!"

Developer 1: "Hmm. We should link them to title tracks so people have to play the game a lot and grind the titles before they have strong changes in these harder areas".

Two problems here:
Unimaginitve game design by creating monsters with arbitrarily powerful skills and stats.
The creation of skills that make it easier for the player, but in the process, lower the difficulty of the rest of the game. These skills also require grind for maximum effect.

If you can't tell, I'm talking about EotN. NF had PvE skills, but far fewer and the SS track is filled up to Rank 7-8 just by playing through the campaign once. Play through EotN and you can get one title to Rank 5 by handing a book in, the rest will probably still be around rank 2.

Of course, I only started playing a couple of months prior to EotN, so what I've said may not be accurate in anyway. Feel free to criticise/argue whatever.

Toxic OnyX · Jun 12, 2009, 11:55 AM // 11:55

Xeno your not too far wrong tbh

with EOTN they took grind to another level, they basically made a whole campaign with the idea of luxon/kurzick faction grind + then having to do every single mission and dungeon NM+HM+VQ+carto to get the additional LMoTN title as no repeatable points are given for anything

add into this mix the idea of taking PvE only skills 1 step further and introducing them to each of the rep titles

Lazy design, unneeded grind added to try and keep the playerbase "busy" whilst they concentrated on GW2

The player base is ranting because of A-net policy of ZERO INFORMATION everyone wants some idea of progress and are getting nothing

as I have said before Aion is released soon, expect a lot of ppl to move away from GW to that, d3 is coming, sc2 is coming just how many of the playerbase will be left for gw2?

Maybe a-net should be releasing tidbits of info, trying to get the community involved... you know actually do something pro-active to engage the players in the hope they may have a core to carry onto GW2, at this moment however it is looking very bleak IMO

Xsiriss · Jun 12, 2009, 12:00 PM // 12:00

Yeh i'm seriously pissed off, adressing 'exploits' that have been round since GWEN and longer!?Why, there's no point now, people will just smite/600 the vaettir to the same effect and most people don't bother resing the npc's in ab etc....

.Added a confirmation box for Name Changes

^Lolwut? Half finished stuff yet again.

Improvavel · Jun 12, 2009, 12:05 PM // 12:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xenomortis

PvE skills and consumables allowed ANet to get away with terrible game design.

I can picture this:

Developer 1: "I know, let's make this game harder by creating very large mobs with irritating skill sets and some powerful Monster Skills and absurd stats! People like a challenge!"

Developer 2: "Great!"

...

Developer 1: "Oh dear, mabye turns out they're a bit too powerful for average players."

Developer 2: "I know, we'll give the players these powerful skills they can only use in PvE. We'll make them more powerful than a lot of unused elites too!"

Developer 1: "Hmm. We should link them to title tracks so people have to play the game a lot and grind the titles before they have strong changes in these harder areas".

Two problems here:
Unimaginitve game design by creating monsters with arbitrarily powerful skills and stats.
The creation of skills that make it easier for the player, but in the process, lower the difficulty of the rest of the game. These skills also require grind for maximum effect.

If you can't tell, I'm talking about EotN. NF had PvE skills, but far fewer and the SS track is filled up to Rank 7-8 just by playing through the campaign once. Play through EotN and you can get one title to Rank 5 by handing a book in, the rest will probably still be around rank 2.

Of course, I only started playing a couple of months prior to EotN, so what I've said may not be accurate in anyway. Feel free to criticise/argue whatever.

It is pretty much true.

Except that the sunspear skills was rebirth signet and the LB were the gaze and the signet. Only later the other were added.

HM was added April 2007 and PvE-only skills June 2007.

The fact is that a challenging game without being too annoying is found in GvG (sometimes is more annoying than others).

Getting hit by mobs that deal 300+ damage AoE, cast spells that look like shouts, fighting in areas with degen or energy suppression and other stuff like that, is quite annoying.

I don't think people like annoying things.

Minami · Jun 12, 2009, 12:06 PM // 12:06

I'd play Aion if it was free to play, until GW2 comes out.
Can't wait for D3. I love to look at their website, and it keeps me on the edge of my seat waiting for it with the info they release about it. Professions, screenshots, spell videos... I'm like OMG I can't wait to play this!
It would be nice if Anet did the same style of thing with GW2.
Who wouldn't just LOVE some information about GW2?

Amnel Ithtirsol · Jun 12, 2009, 12:10 PM // 12:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toxic OnyX

as I have said before Aion is released soon, expect a lot of ppl to move away from GW to that, d3 is coming, sc2 is coming just how many of the playerbase will be left for gw2?

Not a whole lot, I'm afraid, if they continue along this path. Looking at alternatives is not a bad idea...

Nanood · Jun 12, 2009, 12:16 PM // 12:16

Well I hope they keep the roj scatter to the pvp side and leave the pve side alone. But that said if they do make it function like the other scatters I will have to try this discord team that everyone talks about.. Next god mode farming please. After 4 years playing I am over looking for a challenge in gameplay. I just wanna run around and kill stuff without too much thought.

Leave the thinking to the pvp side and hard mode.

Phenixfire · Jun 12, 2009, 12:52 PM // 12:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by BrettM

Didn't you just contradict yourself? One player with discord is not overpowered. It is only op when used by a team and you would like this changed. Yet you do not apply the same standard to imbagons, where you see nothing wrong with op team use as long as an individual player is not op.
As for RoJ, I have no objection to fixing the scattering bug. However, I do object to this bug being fixed in isolation. If RoJ is to be fixed, it should be done as part of an overhaul of smiting, so that smiting remains a viable choice, even if it is no longer as simple as just calling for an ion cannon strike.

The nature of some skills is that they get exponentially more powerful if you bring several copies of it. That goes for nukes as well as heals. That isn't wrong, as some skills are just prefered over others.
The problem with discord specifically is that it's a 100 dmg armor ignoring 2 second recharge spell. Except for the condition and hex/ench need, there's no downside of it. Compared to other damage spells/types, which has to be the comparison standard here, it's way too powerful. Ele nukes might outdo the damage if you stand in them for long enough, but that's not even counted the scatter trigger.
Moreover, discord does not need ANY real synergies. So you have 7 "random" slots left on your bar which you are free to fill with minions, death nova, heals, whatever (note that hexes can be applied by just a single suffering, and conditions via minions/death nova).
That's far too powerful.

I agree with the smiting overhaul in general though.

"SY!" is just a dumb skill. How they could have fixed ursan and left this one alone (same goes for CoP) is pure idioticy. It's a 90% damage reduce vs. physical damage. Nice.
Adding a recharge time at least makes it impossible to maintain it 24/7 ALONE.
That skills can be kept up indefinitely by chaining it with teammates, well, that's just the nature of the game and can't (plus shouldn't) be fixed.

Quote:

think it's quite hilarious (hiscarious even) that most of the poeple who DO complain about Discord/RoJ/SF/CoP/whatever are the ones who've been abusing it the most. But now, obviously when they're done with the VQ:ing of all three contintents, gotten the e-blade from the uw chest after running it like 300 times as a sin, keg-farmed their wisdom titles up to max and so on, they think something like:

"lol wtfbbq, everyone is a gwamm, nerf everything so it gets harder to get and we'll still be the cool kids! I'm done, I dont care if everyone else has to do it the hard way when I got it while sleepwalking and throwing kisses at Livia at the same time. Anet c'moooooon please nerf it all!"

Srsly, that's a pretty hilarious suggestion.
You are right it is "unfair" when people can achieve the same with a lot less work than you had to do without a right compensation (that's why i'm not in favor of a allegiance title redux for ex.).
Still i had been doing DoA when Ursan was still around from the very strart. And i hadn't been happy when it got removed. Yet i knew it was overpowered, totally misplaced and deserved the bat. That's it, nothing with jealousy.
Same goes for Discord and SY! (which isnt actually that great of a use on a spellcaster team as a melee imo). My heroes use it. It's the best bar atm, so i let my heroes run it. Still i want it to be nerfed. It's too powerful. Period.
Shadow Form ... lol. All those sweet little crybabies here (IF YOU NERV SF U NERV 55 AND 600 TUUU. ANET MAKES THIS GAME SOO BAED, I QUIT GW WHEN SEY NERV SF) who have no idea what to do when their precious, dumbest skill of all times gets removed or nerfed. They dont even realize how stupidly imbalanced that skill actually is.
Oh ya, they might lose the ability to run Darkrime Delves/whatever else and by that their only income source. No more showing off average voltaic spears and black dyed crap anymore, boasting with "I RUN DAG/DELVES SOLO. I CAN EVEN RUN THRU UNDERWORLD IN 7 MINS: AND THATS CUZ AIM INVINCIBLE". Ever occured to you that those things were not meant to be solo'd? And all that made it piossible is Anets stupidity?
No wonder PuGs suck and everyone groups with heroes if all you can expect from pugs is pressing "1 2 3".

As for RoJ, this has been discussed. Fix AoE scatter. LOL at PvP version. People who use RoJ in PvP because it does not cause scatter ... gosh, please go back to PermaSin.

Arkantos · Jun 12, 2009, 12:55 PM // 12:55

Quote:

as I have said before Aion is released soon, expect a lot of ppl to move away from GW to that, d3 is coming, sc2 is coming just how many of the playerbase will be left for gw2?

Well, they're pissing off old PvE players by keeping this overpowered shit in the game, and pissing off PvP players by always releasing half assed, poor (and sometimes delayed) skill balances. GW2 is going to be full of Guild Wars fanboys and carebears.

Xsiriss · Jun 12, 2009, 01:11 PM // 13:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tramp

LMAO...10k every 30 minutes or 20k per hour! You have got to be smoking some bad weed if you think that is a good farm at 20k per hour. You can use 3 year old builds like the slow w/rt and farm the smites in uw and make 30k per hour. 20k per hour is pathetic which is why I do not understand why they would nerf that kegging farm. It seemed like an easy, fun way for new players to make some money. It was not very profitable and not broken...

You sir are instantly my favourite person of the day. It's so dam true, I only ever did it during events like easter for free titles/munnehs. All it's done has forced people into raptors which is essentially the same...

Arkantos · Jun 12, 2009, 01:13 PM // 13:13

How can you agree that it wasn't broken? You used a broken skill to be invincible, and spamming infinite damage not using a skill. The kegs were being abused in a way that they weren't meant to. That seems very broken to me.

Xenomortis · Jun 12, 2009, 01:21 PM // 13:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by Improvavel

It is pretty much true.

Except that the sunspear skills was rebirth signet and the LB were the gaze and the signet. Only later the other were added.

Well despite the fact that part of my information was wrong, I think that only strengthens my position.

Inra · Jun 12, 2009, 01:24 PM // 13:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by Arkantos

How can you agree that it wasn't broken? You used a broken skill to be invincible, and spamming infinite damage not using a skill. The kegs were being abused in a way that they weren't meant to. That seems very broken to me.

It was broken. But why it took so many months to fix it? I doubt that it'd required much coding time to fix this - at that's a real problem. ANET often creates broken things (skills, builds), then it allows player base to abuse them and then, finally after x-months, they'are finally fixing them.

Arkantos · Jun 12, 2009, 01:28 PM // 13:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by Inra

It was broken. But why it took so many months to fix it? I doubt that it'd required much coding time to fix this - at that's a real problem. ANET often creates broken things (skills, builds), then it allows player base to abuse them and then, finally after x-months, they'are finally fixing them.

Because ANet are slow at fixing things.

Symeon · Jun 12, 2009, 01:35 PM // 13:35

Doesn't ANet tire of disappointing month after month, having to make feeble excuses for delays? It's not the CR's fault that only two people are working on this game and they decide to spend their time 'fixing' resurrection orbs. However, the way the CR are handling it is wrong. They simply remain silent until the day of the update, then appear with the bad news: 'Not this week, sorry. We can't tell you when it will be.' Who at ANet is holding the leash on the CR? As if no info about GW2 wasn't pissing off the community enough, they're not even allowed to tell us how long the monthly skill update will be delayed.

Seriously ANet, get your act together. Sort out schedules, and stick to them. If you're going to be doing skill updates on the first, second or third Thursday of each month, or every other month, then say so. The same goes for distributing XTH points. If delays are expected, there'd better be good reasoning for them, and they should be announced at least a week in advance. It's not much to ask, considering the effort that seems to go into the skill updates themselves (very little).

Orange Milk · Jun 12, 2009, 01:36 PM // 13:36

Perma sins are worse than Ursan ever was. That skill has got to go.

Killing Keg farming is a good thing.

Delaying a build, YET AGAIN, is a bad thing.

Over and over there are delays as of late is just poor buisness practice.

Sure we can sit around and say, "They don't even have to do updates so we should just be happy they do and shut up" and that one way to look at it. But it was ANet who said that they would do the updates on certain dates and are now no longer comitting to it.

I'm just glad that, as far as this game goes, I've learned to expect to be dissapointed so all I had to do yesterday was shug and move on.

I suggest everyone else do the same, EXPECT TO BE DISAPPOINTED by ANet around every turn, that way every update won't be so bad that way you won't be surprised at the failure. But then, on the off chance ANet listens to the players AND bothers to put the work in and release an actual good update imagine how surprised and happy you will be?

Tullzinski · Jun 12, 2009, 02:23 PM // 14:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by Orange Milk

Over and over there are delays as of late is just poor buisness practice.

Sure we can sit around and say, "They don't even have to do updates so we should just be happy they do and shut up" and that one way to look at it. But it was ANet who said that they would do the updates on certain dates and are now no longer comitting to it.

I wonder if the Live Team is working in their summer vacations.

Anyway have to agree it is poor business practice.

With regard to the updates ANET left themselves an out:

Throughout the year, our regular monthly builds will include Xunlai Tournament rewards, changing out the Zaishen chest monthly tonic, and map rotations for Automated Tournaments. These builds may also include small skill balance changes, tweaks to AI, or bug fixes on an as needed basis.

Note the key word: MAY....

Toxic OnyX · Jun 12, 2009, 02:25 PM // 14:25

Anyone reading this thread would be able to rationalise the problems and offer a solution, why is it that A-net cannot seem to do this also?

problem...

Skill change/ game update... Player base realise problem with update or skill (be it OP or over-nerfed or bad design/glitch) and post on here... and post on here... and post on here (carry this action on for next 6 months) CRM makes a post "we are aware it will be looked at", no further info is given for next 2/3 months, players are still asking what is happening, no feedback from CRM or devs, players still asking etc... then problem is either not fixed/ignored with no further information or is fixed or nerfed into the floor so as not used again.

Whilst all that is going on regarding 1 particular issue, other updates come and go with meaningless fixes, poorly thought through Skill balances and players are raising issues with each of these so it becomes a matter of the snowball effect.

Solution?

Prioritise your updates/skill balance issues

how?

Exploits (game altering, mechanic breaking) = priority #1
OP skills, PvP imbalanced skills = priority #2
new content = priority #3
minor bug fixing = priority #4

also

Take some of the load off your GW1 team, if it is expected to work properly then you need to address capacity issues, so if having to implement special weekends every weekend is an issue then don't do it, make it every 2 weeks instead. rather than try and rush out 3/4 big content updates why not drop it to 2 instead and concentrating on fixing the core of the game.

at least 70% of the posters in guru can and have pointed out to everyone who can read that SF is broken, RoJ is Broken, CoP is broken, the ability to play a secondary profession better than the actual primary is broken.. YOUR SKILL BALANCE IS BROKEN! {caps ftw as they may actually be able to read it

}

It doesn't take a genius to realise this is priority #1 at present, the skill balance is so broken in PvE that is is a game altering exploit, so fix it. PvP has degenErated hugely, so fix it.

Why waste more time fixing useless stuff, providing meaningless updates, pointless weekends, broken and rushed skill balances when the dev teams precious time should be spent putting to right the core of the game ONLY after the core problems are addressed should they even begin to devote time to adding more content IMO.

BUT most of all... TELL US WHAT IS GOING ON! if the dev's & CRM made a post saying, right ppl, there will be no skill updates for 2 months, no new content, no nothing, but we guaranteee 100% that in 2 months time we will release a skill update that will fix all the skill issues with no delays and nothing broken then I am certain the majority of players would accept that.

Information/communication and prioritising is the key to any successful business, so why do a-net not seem to be aware of this?

Cab Tastic · Jun 12, 2009, 02:26 PM // 14:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by Arkantos

How can you agree that it wasn't broken? You used a broken skill to be invincible, and spamming infinite damage not using a skill. The kegs were being abused in a way that they weren't meant to. That seems very broken to me.

I think you are missing the point. Yes, it was broken but it was not hugely profitable, it was just fun. It didn't need to be fixed to plug an exploit that was harming the economy, because as pointed out by several other people here there are far more profitable farms out there.